VIDEO INTERVIEW: Bad Viking on Strange Antiquities

Daniel Weissenberger sits down to chat with John and Rob Doncan — the two-man group behind development studio Bad Viking. They released Strange Horticulture in 2022 to rave reviews, and now they’re on the verge of releasing their new title, Strange Antiquities. We chat about design, how puzzles fit into a world with items, and which cat is best. Be sure to keep an eye out for Strange Antiquities which releases September 17th for Steam and Switch!

TRANSCRIPT:

GameCritics.com: Today on GameCritics, we’re talking to Bad Vikings John and Rob Doncan. The developers responsible for the instant classic puzzle game Strange Horticulture. Their new game, Strange Antiquities, is a sequel of sorts set in the same world, but moving the action to a shop for rare and mysterious artifacts. All right, we’re joined today by John and Rob, the two man developer team responsible for the Strange franchise. Is that what you guys refer to it as? 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s what we’d call it. Yeah. 

GC: In 2022, they gave us Strange Horticulture, a game about sorting and finding rare and mysterious plants. And now upcoming is the sequel, Strange Antiquities. So, can I start right at the beginning? What were your big influences in kicking off the Strange franchise? Like I can go to your website and look at your library and there’s a lot of action games in there and if I looked at the end of the four games you made beforehand. Strange Horticulture is quite a departure. 

Rob: Yeah, it it is. But there’s like… there is history there as well. Like you know kind of point and click games we played growing up and we made a couple of those as well. So kind of puzzly stuff was always in our blood, I think. You know, we… we grew up with games like Mist and Riven and, in particular the Discworld series as well. We loved those games, which obviously kind of more humor,  than we necessarily have ended up doing here. But yeah, so I think there is, you know, there’s some history there. And then another thing that we were really inspired by was board games. So I mean you might be able to see behind me.

GC: Katan and Gloomhaven. 

Rob: Yeah, got a little board game collection going on here. So I think specifically stuff like Eldritch Horror and there’s a game called Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective which you have, if you haven’t played, there’s a similar sort of map mechanic in it where you go around London solving crimes. And so we kind of borrowed that slightly for Strange Horticulture. Obviously, there’s a map in it and you can… you solve puzzles to find your way around to find plants and and uncover the story, that sort of stuff. So yeah, board games, old adventure games and point and click games and puzzle games kind of always been there for us. 

GC: Okay. 

John: Yeah. I think I think… I think with… basically when we came to making Strange Horticulture, we were sort of… we’ve been toying around with loads of ideas for like a year. We kind of had a bit of a failure when we tried to make a sort of artillery game for Steam that didn’t do so well. And we were… we were toying with a board game idea. We were toying with a point and click adventure game set in a town called Undermere. And then it was Rob who came he he went out one day on a dog walk and came back saying I’ve seen an advert for some gardening company or I don’t know what it was exactly but he he he I think it had the word “horticulture” in it and he came back and he pitched he said I’ve had an idea called Strange Horticulture and it’s like about running an occult plant shop and what do you think and I I just said you know what that sounds really cool can we let’s make that game ’cause you know we we we hadn’t latched on to anything in a kind any kind of strong way. We… and we were desperate for a kind of… like… you know something some kind of source of inspiration and that just seemed really cool like I I could instantly kind of see something in that. So we dropped everything else and then it’s funny how like you start borrowing things. If you take the setting from the point and click game that we were sort of half working on, the map from Rob says Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective, but we’d actually put that into our own little board game thing. And we took… we took that from there and and suddenly we built up this kind of world and obviously we’re just a two man team so we’re like let’s try and keep you know play to our strengths. We really liked the concept of the what they’ done with… what Lucas Pope had done with Papers, Please and having it all on one screen and kind of the tactile feel of the you know stamping documents and opening books and things like that. And we were like that could work really nicely here and having it in a single sort of screen layout. So let’s borrow that kind of game design. But like you’re… you’re studying books and studying law and and trying to find out about plants and yeah, it’s amazing how these kinds of things (work) together. But yeah, if you look at our sort of game history, it’s not the most obvious like of moves, but sometimes you got to move in tangents in this industry and hey, look, now we’re making strange games and having fun with it. 

GC: Oh man. Okay. Now here’s just a game… just a question about playing the game. Am I not playing it right if the minute I started I turned on auto-label? 

Rob: No, I mean look, that’s obviously we kind of know that there’s a subset of people that are going to love labeling their plants and it’s really interesting. We’ve watched a lot of playthroughs, particularly of people playing the demo of Strange Antiquities. Um, and there’s a lot of people who see the popup saying, you can turn on autolabeling if if labeling items isn’t your thing. And a lot of people who say, “No, it really is my thing. I don’t want to turn on autolabeling.” And then equally, there’s a lot of people who say, “Yeah, it’s not my thing. It’s not for me.” And they turn it on. So, yeah, I don’t know what the split is necessarily. Like it kind… I think this kind of game does appeal to people who like sort of organizing stuff, but it’s not that’s not what it’s about. That’s kind of a a side quest if you like, but yeah, you’re not cheating if you turn on auto labeling. That’s why we put it there. 

John: Yeah. But it was always our intention to offer that side of it. It’s like, you know, for people that want to arrange their shelves how they want to arrange them and they want to give each… each plant or each item its own label, you know, there’s something kind of quite fun about that in a weird kind of… like organizational way. Like I think some people get a lot out of that. So, it’s definitely Yeah, it’s just two types of player and some people want to turn them auto labeling on and others would rather label their own plants. And which… either camp you’re in, we just offer different… that play style to both. And it’s up to you. And that’s the great thing about being able to choose.

Rob: The… I will say that the steam thread of how to arrange your plants on Strange Horticulture is the longest thread in the whole back end… in the whole discussion section. So yeah, people get quite into it. The favorite… my favorite one that someone posted was that they arranged them by smell so the nice… the nice smelling ones are near the customers as they come in. 

GC: That’s fantastic. Sorry, that’s very good. It did not occur to me with No, I… I will say that I would have had a much easier time in the endgame if I had sorted them all by what kind of thematic resonance they gave off early in the game. 

Rob: Right. Yeah. 

GC: Like if there’s one tip to make the game a lot easier, it’s the minute you get that lens, put on the labels what kind of… what kind of resonance they have ’cause that is going to save you a ton of time. 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I think again some people are kind of naturally more organizational and they’ll just do that instinctively. Again, you see it watching people just playing the demo that, you know, different labeling systems. Some people are really organized and other people are just chaotic. I think John and I, well certainly me, I would be in the more chaotic camp. 

John: Yeah. I mean I was I… I think… I don’t think I’ve ever even put on auto labels or done any labeling, but that’s because I know I know the item sort of off by heart. So I just like where’s my thingy? Yeah, I’ll go find that. So yeah, like I think if I was playing it myself from scratch, I’d be an auto labeler to be honest. 

GC: Okay, good. I’m not alone. Is that a real cat’s purr on the soundtrack? 

Rob: I assume so. It’s a licensed sound effect. So…

JOhn: It certainly will be a real cat’s pur.

Rob: I’d be surprised if it’s not… not my, not our cats, though. 

GC: (I’m) really wondering if you recorded it live. 

Rob: That would have been cool. Yeah. 

GC: Is it the same purr in both games? 

Rob: No. A new purr for a new cat. 

GC: Okay. Alright. It sounded different to me. I just had no idea if that was just my ears playing tricks. Alright, at what point did you start coming up with the idea of doing Strange Antiquities? Were you… Did it happen during the development of Strange Horticulture or after it was finished? 

John: Oh, after like we… Strange Horticulture was like… We were so focused on Strange Horticulture all the way through like we didn’t even think about what to do after ’cause we had no idea like how it was going to be received or anything like that. So the focus was entirely let’s get make for us it was about making the best game that we could with our resources. I mean one of the kind of ideas we had during development was let’s make try and make somebody’s favorite game. That was like a concept we were… we were working with rather than trying to make something that’s like going to make loads of money or is going to be critically acclaimed or let’s make one person’s favorite game and see where it goes. So we… we tried that. We made the best game we possibly could and then we released it and gosh the reception was so much bigger than anything we could have imagined like in terms of the feedback, the reviews the audience were they just seem to really enjoy it. And so after that we were like well makes sort of sense to do another strange game I think. Um, and we still felt we had more stories to tell in Undermere. 

Rob: …but we kind of felt like we… we’d maybe exhausted like, not exhausted, but we put all our best plant ideas into Strange Horticulture and we wanted to try something a bit different. So, I don’t think we thought too much. Correct me if I’m wrong, John, but I don’t think we took too long to decide it was going to be Antiquities. I think that strange like occult artifacts kind of made sense to us pretty quickly.

John: Yeah, we were brainstorming ideas for a follow-up. And honestly, it was quite a short list. I think it was like sort of occult items, cryptic creatures, there might have been something else, but basically the natural progression for us felt like yeah, antiquities. Yeah, you know, you go into museums and there’s cursed items and items about witchcraft and all sorts of that. So, it… it works in the world really well. 

GC: Okay. Next question. Now, you’ve already mentioned and gave a wonderful shout out to Papers, Please, Lucas Pope’s just amazing simulator. Were there any other games that really you felt influenced you in designing this one? 

Rob: I mean that Papers Please was definitely the biggest one I think. I mean although it’s interesting we probably get compared more to Lucas Pope’s other big game, the Return to Obra Dinn. 

GC: Return. Yeah. 

Rob: Because the gameplay is perhaps more similar to that… that sort of deductive reasoning.

GC: …looking at all of the oblique clues to put together the answer. 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. but that wasn’t really intentional. we kind of yeah that just sort of happened. but yeah I I can’t think of any other specific games that we were in by..

John: I think thematically we you know we had come across things like Cultist Simulator and Fallen London games and things like that and we sort of we we didn’t… Rob’s played Cultist Simulator, I haven’t played these games, but it… it was kind of like looking into those kind of like cultish occult things, we just felt like there was something cool there. And when we started and that was like always the idea, right? It was going to be occult plants. And then we started researching it and kind of looking into it more and you kind of come across things like well in the 15th century that there was a famous botanist in the in in Britain called Nicholas Culpepper and he wrote something called complete herbal which was like a guide to like pharmaceutical plant use and and other uses you know mystical uses more spiritual uses I guess and you sort of get we got a copy of it and you kind of go oh it’s got the plant. The sketch of the plant and like a description of the plant and then what does it do? And you know it can be how from like settling stomach to warding off spirits. And we were like that’s… that’s really cool. Like why don’t we just take that kind of concept and just you know go our go even more sort of supernaturally occulty like fun with it. and that’s kind of what we did. So yeah, those are the kinds of things we were inspired by. less probably like specific games just…

Rob: There was also well as I mentioned earlier the board games but there was also a game called Coffee Talk which itself was kind of inspired by Papers, Please and a game called Va-11 Hall-A, I assume as well which… Coffee Talk is about you know being a barista in a kind of fantasy setting not sure what you’d call it exactly but that that kind of taught us that you can have this kind of slower paced game play. and like it can be kind of chilled and you know it doesn’t… doesn’t need to be fast-paced or frantic or anything like that. You can do quite a lot with a little. 

GC: Okay. Yeah. All right. On the website for the game, Rob is listed as coding and designing. John is doing the art and designing. Who is writing the character dialogue and book entries because there’s so many of them in the game. 

Rob: Yeah, true. Well, that’s Yeah, that’s pretty much all me. Oviously with some help from John as well. And actually John’s wife wrote some of the like flavor text for some of the locations that you can visit in the first game, I believe. 

John: I think… Well, yeah, we sat down together, Steph and I, and just like just took locations and just started writing descriptions and stuff. So, yeah, I think most when I say game design is, you know, it’s a collaborative process and that includes things like the story, we we we come up with some ideas, we we talk about it like and then but most of the writing is definitely Rob’s side of it, but that doesn’t mean to say I don’t get involved. I’ve… I’ve done a few little bits in the game like I think most of the epilogue entries I think are more me in… in the game. So it is a collaborative process. it’s just our main roles are art and code and then we also have loads of other hats that we put on, you know, like sound design, animator, narrative designer, marketing, social media, community stuff. We do… we do so much just as just the two of us. 

GC: Okay. All right. So specifically about the text, what challenges did you face in coming up with the kind of word puzzles that are in the entries? I have to imagine it’s kind of difficult writing these entries that tow the line between legitimately sounding like a description of the item and the history of the item without just giving away what it is… 

Rob: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Very challenging. And much more challenging designing those puzzles on strange antiquities than it was on Strange Horticulture. Partly because obviously plants all share similar properties, right? So you can describe a plant’s leaves as being heart-shaped or whatever and that could apply to any plant and you have to go and check all of your plants on your shelf and see if they have heart-shaped leaves. Whereas you can’t really do that with items. Like if you say it has a handle or whatever then okay yeah that could apply to a couple of items but not many. If you say well yeah so it’s about like trying to use those broader terms. So trying to… trying to find those broader descriptive terms. So like using the material maybe or you know we might say it’s a pendant or it’s a totem or something. You’ve got lots of those on your shelves. So that’s kind of what we try and do is… is give a broader descriptive clue or maybe try and use a sketch or something like that that could apply to more than one item. And then we’ll try and have other clues peppered in there that will help you narrow it down. where you might have to use some other tools to help you do that. So, you might have to inspect the item in some way, see if it makes a sound or has a threatening aura or something like that. Or you might have to weigh it or use some other items in your shop to kind of help you get there. But yeah, that was… that was certainly a challenge this time round. But I think by working through that challenge, we perhaps came up with some more interesting ideas this time around, and hopefully some more interesting puzzles came out of that process.

John: Yeah, I mean it took longer like… the process way longer than in Strange Horticulture to come up with one all these items visually like plants because they’re similar. You… I just started drawing plants and then you just draw the next one and you kind of find some way of comparing them and making (them) interesting. It’s almost like we designed the puzzles first and then designed the items and then… then you also have to come back and try and throw in little bits of red herrings for other puzzles. And like it’s, you know, it’s about creating a putting in a few clues into the description like as Rob said, one that’s a broader sort of clue, one that’s more of a like narrow it down and a clincher. And but also making it sort of vague enough and interesting enough and appealing enough law-wise that it sort of like it has this richness to it in the game as well. So it’s… it’s an incredibly difficult process. I think it… it’s when we come up with a way that’s to do a puzzle that is unique and completely different to how you’re used to kind of using your book looking for and those are the ones which are, I think, land the best on the player as well. So the more of those we can put in the better really. 

Rob: And some of my favorite ones are the ones where it’s like one small sentence. So you… you know you get ones that are like have three or four quite maybe disguised clues but like…

GC: The insanity card where it’s just like I don’t know what the entry is something (like) “This is as mysterious as insanity in the mind itself.” Thanks. Hugely helpful. 

Rob: Doesn’t give you much to go on, but then you know once you crack it, I think…

GC: Very satisfying. Exactly. 

Rob: Right. Yeah. Great. 

GC: How much and well when you’re writing tests… texts this complex to work as puzzles, how much testing of that do you have to do, right? Do you have people you’d normally test this stuff on? 

Rob: Yeah, I mean obviously as as much as possible is the answer, but that is hard because well one of the biggest problems that we face with a game like this is that it doesn’t really fall into place until quite close to the end of the game like end of development in the sense that as John says you know in designing the items one item on its own is not a puzzle. You need 10 items on your shelf that you haven’t identified yet so that there can be ones to compare it against. So until you’ve kind of designed those other items that might be red herrings, you know, you can’t and… you’ve designed the… the tools to identify these items, you can’t show it to someone and say, “Is this working or isn’t it?” So yeah, that obviously came quite late in development. 

GC: You have to make the game before you know if it’s any good. 

John: Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah, it’s not a game that we could like… Even with Strange Horticulture, it’s not a game that we were able to prototype and sort of and test out on people and say, “Does this work?” We… we just had to go with sort of like a gut instinct and and as you say, just basically make the game and then try it out on people and hope that it works…

Rob: But obviously once then once you do try it out on people, you find out, okay, this one is too hard, this one’s too easy or whatever. And then you can kind of go back in and tweak them all and add in more red herrings where required or clarify certain bits here and there. So we’ve done a lot of that obviously and that’s where yeah play testers come into it. 

John: Yeah, especially like you know we… when we launched the demo one of the things obviously it’s only the first two days but all those are the… the easier side of the puzzle. So it’s, you know, we can see how people are interacting with it, where the points of friction are, try and smooth it through, and then you kind of go, okay, that’s how they’re playing. Is there anything else we need to do further up in the game? Like that will just ease people’s frictions. And we’re never going to get it perfect. Like we… we try our hardest to balance the game as as well as we can. Like not too easy, not too hard. You know, I always sort of try and lean towards making it hard and then we realize we’ve we it’s too hard. We got to go… have to go back the other way. But then we were… we were discussing some feedback and a puzzle yesterday and Rob found a quote by Ron Gilbert who did um… 

GC: Monkey Island.

John: Yeah. And he was like, you know, stick stick to hard basically. I can’t remember exactly what it was. 

Rob: He said yeah he is on the side of making it too hard. What he doesn’t want to do is like, you know, if… if you’ve given the players the tools to work something out and there’s a wrench on the table was his specific quote. Don’t be tempted to make the wrench bounce up and down and flash in their face ‘cause part of the fun of these kind of games is figuring that stuff out for yourself. And you know not… you don’t have to make every puzzle easier. It’s just the ones where you know if… if every single play tester trips up on it, that’s obviously you know that’s a flag. But you know some… some things some people are going to find a bit harder and some people will breeze through it and that’s okay. 

John: But it’s about creating those aha moments where you know where you… you know if it’s too easy you don’t get that reward. If it and it’s if it’s too hard, you also and it doesn’t really make sense, you don’t get that reward. But if it’s hard enough that you can work it out and then you do work it out, the sense of satisfaction you get from that is much greater. 

GC: Oh, I agree completely. There’s a lot of really satisfying moments in the game. There’s some… there’s some tough ones, but when you figure it out, it just feels fantastic. 

Rob: Awesome. 

GC: I was thinking about one particularly difficult one, but I’m not going to spoil it here. I tell you later. All right. Do you guys each have a favorite character in the game? 

Rob: For me, I think it’s got to be Verona Green. Partly because she is a returning character from Strange Horticulture. So, if you played that game, you might recognize her. And I mean, she’s kind of… she’s pretty central in both games. She’s… she’s kind of half based on a kind of Granny Weatherwax sort of character from Discworld, if you’re familiar with her. She’s just… Yeah, she’s kind of the… the beating heart of Undermere. I think she kind of keeps everything ticking over. 

John: I mean, like, it would be remiss if I said my favorite character wasn’t the cat because my favorite character is the cat, you know? He’s the central kind of character throughout the game. Well, both games, obviously. It’s a different cat now. But he’s the constant throughout like, he’s always there. He’s minding his own business. You know, he runs the place basically. You, you’re just like… so yeah definitely I would say the cat Jupiter.

GC: Okay. Yeah, one thing I did love about Jupiter is when he’s napping if you hit the… if you hit the bell, of course he’s alarmed that you woke him up but if you pet him first he’ll be awake and he won’t mind the bell.

John: Yeah that’s like something from Strange Horticulture which was a happy accident just how it was set up like and then people loved it or found it, found out about it and loved it so much and then when we released the demo it didn’t have that and people were like excuse me can you fix that please!

Rob: We added that back in. 

GC: Fantastic! Do you have a favorite one of the items in the game?

Rob: I think I’m going to go with an item called the Bloodbeck which I have to be careful here to not give away any sort of puzzle. But it is this kind of mysterious item that has whispered voices and you don’t know if they’re the voices of the dead or the voices of the mysterious nameless gods.

John: I mean honestly, I don’t know the items like inherently by name or by what they do but I do like as the artist is… is for me it’s how they resonate visually. So, I can say like my favorites there are like there’s a wooden doll item with some markings on his head, which I’ve… I don’t know why. I’ve just always liked it. Like I think it’s cool. It could… I can see it in a museum or something. And there’s also one which has… is it’s like a… a sort of doll, a wooden doll with earrings and a big…

GC:  …Disc headdress on top. 

John: Yeah. Yeah. I just… I just like it those… those ones visually like I don’t know. Like and so when… when I did some stickers for Strange Horticulture for Gamescom recently those… those are ones that got printed up. So yeah like um…

GC: Okay. Yeah, there they are. And of course the skull and the flower that use… 

John: Well, that’s kind of in the game’s loading screen. 

Rob: Yeah, it’s quite an iconic one. 

John: Yeah, it became like early on it it was one of the sort of earlier designs and it became like kind of the the insignia for the game like the emblem and…and so it’s… it’s kind of on the the Steam small banner and we kind we kind of use it as our kind of icon I guess. 

GC: Yeah. No, it… it’s quite an image because it ties things of course back to Strange Horticulture. You got the plant right there. 

John: That’s it. There’s a little bit of that and I think like the kind of skull and like the way it is it kind of feels occult and so which it’s a cool… it’s just a cool design. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. 

GC: All right. Now, here’s a question. How did you decide on the yacht dice minigame as a way of punishing players for just random clicking? 

Rob: That was… I’m not sure exactly where that idea came from. Well, so we had something similar in Strange Horticulture where yeah, if you fill up your rising dread meter, we call it and you get a game over. You have a little puzzle to solve to get back in. And we got some really good feedback on that. Some players really loved it. And then I think the players that hit it quite a lot found it quite frustrating that they were just doing the same puzzle over and over again, which yeah, fair enough. We… we take that on board. So we wanted to do something that could be more replayable. Which is a real challenge when you want it to be something quite simple like not take too long and get you back into the game you know within a minute or two, max 5 minutes, something like that. So yeah it went through quite a few iterations but I think we went with a dice game partly because again inspired by board games and those kind of mechanics. Partly because I think visually it’s… it looks cool having, you know, the 3D dice in there, I think it works really well. And partly because it introduces a luck factor. So, there’s that kind of randomizing element. But then balancing that and making sure because the first iteration we did of it, we, you know, we sent it off to our publishers and like, oh, what do you think of this? And they absolutely hated it because it was just way too hard. And they were just getting so frustrated that they couldn’t just get back into the game. So, we tweaked it quite a lot and made it easier. And we also added in a fun little feature where… so if you roll X’s, that’s kind of like a bad thing. You don’t want to roll those. But if you roll two or more of them, Jupiter can swipe his paw across and reroll them for you, which is, kind of nice. 

GC: It’s a delightful surprise. Is the first time it happened. Yeah. Just reached in to help me out. 

Rob: Yeah. 

John: It’s for us like that… the mini game like the game, we call it the game over minigame internally. And it’s basically… it’s needed in the game to stop people just trying every item on the shelf systematically and brute forcing every puzzle. We want people to actually try and work out the right item. So, we have to have something that takes people out so there’s an incentive to try and get the right item first time round. And obviously, if you’re playing the game correctly, you should never see the game over mini game. You should be able to go through the whole game without seeing it. But it’s there like as… and it’s got to fit sort of thematically like does it does it work like does it work within this world? It’s got to be kind of simple to play. And then we also wanted to try and make it so that if you are coming back to it regularly like you can kind of learn how to play it and then we try and increase the difficulty a little bit as you go along. So it becomes almost like a game in itself which you can kind of have… have and there is some sort of strategy to it. So yeah, I think whether people like it or not, we… we don’t, it’s going to be hard to judge until it comes out, but it’s… it’s the best we were able to come up with for that yeah, that section of the game. 

GC: Yeah. As you say, to keep people from just brute forcing every puzzle because it takes you out of the experience if you’re just click click click. Okay, well that doesn’t work, that doesn’t work. Okay. No, it… it absolutely had a great effect there as does the hint system. Did you discuss whether you wanted to have a hint system in the game or was that always the plan? 

John: The… the hint system is there again for, like, people who get to a point where they’re really stuck and they’re going to quit the game and never come back to it. And it’s like, you know, why are we trying to punish people if they’re having a hard time? like let’s give them clues and rather than just telling them the answer, let’s try and like give a, you know, a simple clue and then if they’re still struggling another clue and then if they’re still struggling it maybe a final clue that really hints at it. But like it’s about providing as seamless an experience for everyone. And so having the hints, is something we always plan to do in Strange Horticulture and then for this absolutely we would… we definitely added it. And we’ve done another thing this time round which we didn’t do previously which is we kind of we talked a lot about it and then we’ve just decided to do it anyway is when you solve a puzzle and you identify an item in the in the screen that comes up there’s a popup and we we list the reason…

GC: What the clues were. 

John: What the clues were. The idea being that if someone wasn’t entirely sure why that was the right answer, we’ve given them the clues so that they can go, “Ah, okay, that makes sense.” And also maybe get into the way we think and how we’re setting puzzles, 

GC: Teaching them what to look for in future puzzles. 

Rob: Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that was the thinking behind it. Sure. 

GC: Well, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and that’s what it… that’s the effect it had on me. So, I confirm that works. You say the game is largely not humorous, and I think that’s true, but there are a lot of moments of levity in there, like at the time I clicked, you know, to feel what the texture of a bottle’s label was, and the answer was papery. 

Rob: Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. 

GC: Is there stuff that from there that, like, really makes you guys laugh? 

Rob: Yeah. So when I said (it) is less humorous, I guess I was meaning in contrast to something like Discworld, which is very silly like super British sarcastic kind of humor. We do… we do have some of that kind of dry humor in there as well. You can probably tell from our accents that we’re British and… and that’s yeah, that’s kind of in our DNA there. So yeah, we did put a few things in. I’m struggling to think of any good examples off the top of my head, but yeah, I think certainly Verona adds that partly that’s why I like Verona Green because she adds a bit of that sort of wit to her um… 

GC: ..in her interactions. 

John: Yeah. when we… when we can be witty, we we’ll try and add some wit in just ‘cause it… it works well with the kind of it’s… it’s about a counterpoint to the dark kind of more sinister stuff going on when you can provide moments of levity and I think they’re important. So…

GC: Okay. All right. Now, you’re you’ve already told me that when you’re designing the quests, ‘cause it’s funny, I wrote out my question and it’s like, what comes first? The character who has a problem solved or the item you want to use, but it seems to me the real organ order you’re doing this is you come up with a puzzle you want to do first and then the other two fold into that. That a fair way of describing it? 

Rob: Yes, pretty much, I’d say. Yeah, I think that’s kind of how we approached it was design as many or… or come up with as many puzzles as we could. Like, yeah, I’ve got kind of pages of notebooks filled of just different ideas for item puzzles and… and then you kind of design an item around that. And then because you can you can kind of like not always, but you can kind of tweak the use case of an item to fit where you need it. But yeah, I mean, honestly, this was a real headache for us because yeah, we… we’ve got a narrative going on there as well. So, anyone who comes into your shop, ‘cause it’s not a narrative where you’re kind of necessarily driving it yourself by going out into the world and speaking to different characters, that sort of stuff. It’s more that you… you’re kind of yeah, you’re in your shop and characters come to you and they might propel the narrative forward with a little snippet of dialogue here and there. But then those characters that come in, they… they have to come in for a reason generally. You know, sometimes the character will come in, you know, where we just could not think of an item that this person would need at that point and they just go away and there was no real purpose to their visit other than they wanted to come in and talk to you. But that’s… there’s not too many of those. So yeah, trying to come up with a reason for every single visit and fitting in those use cases for each item. Yeah, real real headache for us and took us quite a long time to kind of unravel that.

GC: Now, for… from a replayability standpoint, at the end of the game, I won’t spoil what happens, but you let us know what happened to all of the characters. How many different character end states did you end up putting in the game? 

Rob: That’s a good question. I… I don’t actually know off the top of my head. Yeah. So, there are… I was going to say there are 10 character characters who kind of have a more central role in the story and that you… give you have bios of them. I think it’s 10. And then there are a couple more who don’t have bios, but they do show up in that endgame summary because they, you know, got intertwined in the story somehow and… and you might want to find out how they turned out. So yeah each of those has you know at least two or three different end states but some of them have quite a few. 

John: Yeah, obviously like you know feeding into that the game has branching points where you have to make choices. And like a character will come in and there’ll be… it’ll be a choice of two items that you can give her and obviously then the narrative branches and we sort of go in different directions and I think we’ve got eight possibly eight eight endings maybe nine endings in the game. And you know, each one has different end states for each of the characters, but it’s based off the end. I think there can only ever be nine separate endings like each one with that kind of summary sheet. 

GC: Okay.

John:  Where some people might…

Rob: No, the summary sheet will be different. 

John: Oh, really? 

Rob: (For like ) the same ending. Yeah. Because there are, you know, there are some characters that…  minor characters that you might have made a different choice with. 

GC: So that doesn’t meaningfully affect the main ending. 

Rob: Right, yeah. 

GC: Okay. Wow. So there’s the nine big endings and then that can have an assortment of character outcomes within the big ending. 

Rob: Right, exactly. 

GC: That is a huge amount of branching. 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not… it’s slightly less complicated than it sounds perhaps in terms of the branching. It’s you know there yeah there are certain decision points during the game as John says and again like you know that branch branching it is really really difficult again because you don’t want to run into a scenario where you know you you might need an item on one branch and you whatever like it it yeah it’s complicated fitting it into this sort of framework but we obviously We we kind of learned how to do that from Strange Horticulture to a degree and kind of..

John: Yeah. But you make it sound like that we learned and it made it easier but it’s a tool like I think arguably it was harder this time round. Again I… I don’t know why but it was.

GC: All right. Now this is just a detail that I absolutely loved and I got to know how it ended up in the game. If I look left and right in the shop, it’s not like I’m turning my eyes. It’s like I’m picking up the whole shop and moving it because all of the hanging items swing back and forth. Why is that in the game? 

Rob: I kind of… I almost don’t want to admit this because well, no, obviously I will, but it was… it was basically an accident. I didn’t intend for it to be like that. I put the code for pendulums swinging into the game and I noticed that it was doing this and it was only afterwards and and but I, you know, I saw it and I was like, well, it shouldn’t technically be doing that, but it does look kind of cool, so I think I’m just going to leave it in. And yeah, the reason is that instead of ‘cause… so I can either move the camera right in the back end, I can move the camera around the shot or I can move the shelves. But because when you go down to the desk, that’s… that moves the camera down. But then moving the shelves is like a separate thing. I don’t want to move the camera across when I’m on the desk view. So, the easy solution there is to simply move the shelves, which means that by a happy accident, I’m moving the whole world, which means that the pendulums start swaying just because they… their position moves in the world. 

John: But it creates this kind of like extra tactile quality to everything, you know, like just having things like moving and stuff and like there’s something about Strange Horticulture. We had the plants were all swaying and stuff, but these are static items. It’s like how can we create life? And one of the… the things I think that does that is just having the… the talisman, the pendants kind of just sway when you pick them up and put them down and when you move the shop around. And I just yeah, it feels… I don’t know. It feels more enjoyable as a player when you’re kind of navigating it around. Even though maybe it doesn’t entirely make sense. Though that said, we’ve always maintained like the shop itself is an… is a thing is almost like an entity. I mean, there are some puzzles which require I mean, it’s not a spoiler to say there are some plinths in the counter and that one of the puzzles involves putting items on plinths and then you can go to other locations in your shop and the way we do that is we slam the shelves together and you mysteriously get to a different bit. I mean, so it’s… there is a kind of like, I don’t know, magical quality to the way the shop sort of moves around. 

GC: Well, according to the lore, the town was built around the shop, so that’s not a huge surprise. 

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And nobody really knows who built it or how old it is. 

GC:There you go. Actually, when you’re talking about moving up and down to your… the desk you look down at, I did notice that the controls are much more, kind of, intuitive and user friendly than they were in Strange Horticulture. Like the way you… you put the… the magnifying glass on the mouse wheel this time. So, it’s very easy to just zip into that. The ambidextrous controls in the keyboard. Was that based on feedback from people who played Strange Horticulture? 

Rob: I mean partly that just came out of extending the layout. ‘Cause obviously Strange Horticulture is just that single screen. But this time we wanted to put the characters front and center and have the dialogue text a little bit bigger so it’s, you know, not quite as hard to read on smaller devices. so then you know as an extension of that then the desk goes below the main shop window so now you have to move it around. But then yeah so it kind of came out of that, and yeah obviously there… there was some feedback on Strange Horticulture that we had tried to address as well. And some feedback from people playing the demo of Strange Antiquities that we’ve already been able to address. You know stuff like people struggled with exiting various menus. They wanted to press escape, which I always thought that the default for escape would be to bring up the you know the system menu. But we’ve made it so that that will also exit menus and then it will only bring up the system menu if you’re kind of if you’re not in one of those…

GC: And you’re… you’re in the neutral screen. Okay. 

Rob: Yeah, yeah. 

GC: Yeah. I did hit escape a lot. You’re right. Yeah. 

Rob: Yeah. Well, yeah. Players… players wanted it. So, yeah. So obviously having as much play testing as possible allows, you know, enables us to find those kind of points of friction and… and allows us to smooth them out as much as we can. You know, we’re not going to be able to get everything, but we do the best we can. 

GC: Okay. What kind of work went into designing the game’s maps? Like you talked about some of the inspirations with Consulting Detective, but what I was intrigued by was that all three of the maps you’ve chosen to do in completely different art styles. 

John: Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, it’s funny you say that. I never intended them to be different art styles, but I suppose, like, they’re designed by different map designers. What we… the key thing was we wanted each map to feel different to the last one, right? And… and that extends back to Strange Horticulture as well. We… When we designed that map, you know, when you’re going out looking for flowers, it always felt like it needed to be a wide area. And we set our game in the Lake District in the UK and you go up The Fells and you find rare plants and you bring them back to your shop. And it was all done on a grid- based layout and the puzzles were all all around this kind of grid system. We kind of were like, well, we’ve done that grid layout. We did as many grid kind of based puzzles as we could think of in that game. And we were like, we don’t want to do that again. So what can we do differently? And I mean early on we were like well we’ll just set this in Undermere itself like focus it makes more sense. And (I) really like the idea of doing a street layout map for that. And then we kind of like people loved exploring the maps. Let’s add more. What else can we do? And it was just about trying to find other ideas which would offer us the ability to do different kinds of puzzles. So yeah, again like we don’t want to entirely spoil it for people because I think part of what’s fun playing the game is coming across the different maps as you go through the game and like oh what’s this one got in it and it’s like cool. 

GC: Well, there is definitely a… a spoilery question I would like to ask you about the… the underground map, but I’m definitely not going to do it here. 

Rob: Okay. Sure. 

GC: It was a… it was such a delight to come on that third map and just doing everyone has its own completely different kind of puzzle because for the… the town map it kind of makes sense. You’re asking people who lives across from where? What are the streets named, right? What is north, south, east, and west of place? But then the… for the mansion, right, you’re suddenly asking yourself, okay, now I’m imagining myself walking through this space. Whereas when you get into the underground, it’s all about lore and history. And it’s because it’s interesting because it’s not just three different locations, it’s three different kinds of puzzles. 

John: Yeah. Yeah. And then on top of it, there’s another puzzle, which is when you get a clue card, we don’t tell you which map it is, so you have to kind of analyze it and work out which one we’re talking about. 

GC: Yeah, that was a lot of fun, not going to lie, getting through all the clue cards. Well, the embarrassing part is, you know, you get the first clue card before you know, you get it right away and you’re like, what the… what does this mean? Is this a story thing? What is going on? 

Rob: Yeah. 

GC: It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out it was a map reference. 

Rob: That’s that’s interesting. Yeah. 

GC:Yeah. 

Rob: Obviously, yeah. Well, that’s again that’s part of the game and that’s part of, you know, it’s that coming back to that Ron Gilbert quote of we don’t want to tell people that, we… we don’t want to signpost it. We want players to have those ah kind of moments and and work it out for themselves. 

GC: Oh, and all right, here’s… here’s a kind of related question just for the player experience. Have you considered adding in a new game plus mode where after they’ve gotten the trophy for unlocking every single item when they restart the game, they can just have everything pre-labeled so they can speedrun getting the different endings they want? 

Rob: So yes, we have considered it. I mean, if it’s just a case of pre-labeled, uh, that’s certainly a lot easier. The part of the reason that we haven’t done that yet, as in, so that feature doesn’t exist yet, is because there’s just two of us and making a game and finishing a game is a lot of work. And that is obviously like there’s… for the big fan for the you know our core fans of the game. We want to be able to give them those sorts of features but it’s not necessarily a core feature for the game. So they’re kind of like really nice to haves but yeah we’re not going to prioritize it until we’ve kind of done everything else basically. So yes, we… we would like to add those sorts of features but they’re not there yet. 

John: There… I would also like (to) point out for anyone playing that is interested in trying to find the different endings, it doesn’t require you to always restart the game from the beginning. We… in the save system, we do have save points at every day. So you can kind of go back in to a maybe where if you make a note of where a branch was or like certainly at the end like when you get to the end of the game there’s kind of a choice to make on where you go to kind of do your ending. Like there’s like different places where ending points can happen. So you can kind of try out the… those different branches by just going back a day and trying them different. You don’t have to play the whole game through again. It’s just like some of the more… 

Rob: If you have… if you have, you know, set up the choices to be able to unlock that ending at all, but yes.

John: That’s true. Yeah, I forget that… there are other bits further back like that can have an impact on where you can go at the end. And…

GC: I definitely did not have a choice of where to go at the end. So, obviously, I screwed something up. Okay. Do you guys have a third installment in the series in mind? Can fans expect to be like running a strange pet shop or a strange bakery in 2028? 

Rob: We, I mean, we… Yeah, we’re not committing to anything at this point, but I don’t want to think that we’re done with Strange or we’re done with Undermere in particular. So, yeah, we… we hope to come back to it, but we’re yeah, we’re… we’re you know, we’re we’re toying with ideas behind the scenes definitely. 

John: At the same time, we’ve been working in… on the strange universe now for five years and part of us is kind of like exhausted with it and needs to kind of maybe park it for a bit. So whether we go straight into, like, thinking about that or whether we sort of pivot for a bit, I don’t know. It’s like this is, you know, we’ve been so focused on finishing Strange Antiquities, getting it out, making the best game we could make. That kind of those conversations about what we do for a third game like we have like had them like little ones from time to time but nothing like properly serious like we are definitely going to do that next you know so it’s like we we we do obviously really hope and especially like well it depends kind of like how people see perceive Strange Antiquities when it comes out if people are loving it and want more and there’s a real appetite for it. It kind of makes us feel like…like well we… we ought to, you know, but if it’s really disappointing, well, may… maybe we’ve had enough. 

GC: Well, you’ve been living in this world for 5 years, So like, roughly how much work have you done on the lore and backstory of this world? Like how much do you know about this world that has never been revealed in the games? 

Rob: To be honest, I think most of that does go into the game in some way. The… Yeah, we… Yeah, I think I think it goes into the game. Like there’s… there’s some lore and stuff that we’ve written that doesn’t obviously, but…

John: But those are more like story ideas that we had like that have been dropped. We’re not like the kind of I guess like TV show designers that have planned out series 1 to 5 and they know where it’s going. We… we’ve made series 1, we’ve made series 2, and now the network says, you need to do three more series. Oh, right. Like, yeah, maybe we need to think about it some more. 

GC: You’re building the railroad as you’re going down it. 

John: Yeah, I think I think that’s definitely more of the approach. We, you know, like, I love the idea of sort of Undermere adjacent stories and, like, and things like that… that you know, writing some stories about the world like that kind of go into the history a bit more and stuff like that. That’ll be really cool to do. 

Rob: One certainly one thing that we have really enjoyed this time round is because it’s a sequel, we can kind of reference back to Strange Horticulture. So there’s quite a few little references dotted back to that game in this one. so you know for fans of the first game, I think you’ll spot a few of those things. Um…

GC: it was nice to be able to go to Strange Horticulture in the (game) 

Rob: Yes. Well, exactly. So that’s… that’s one of one of the little Easter eggs. You can actually visit the shop in this one. And there’s yeah, there’s quite a few little things like that and some like… Yeah, I really enjoyed putting those extra lore elements in there that tie back into the first game and kind of some of them might answer some questions. Like I think one of my favorite ones, I guess I don’t want to spoil it too much, but it’s not a big spoiler. There is the great oak in Strange Horticulture, which is never really explained. It’s just something that’s marked on your map. It’s this huge oak tree. And if you are paying attention in this game, you know, there are some small clues about where that came from. Which, you know, it’s… it’s a minor detail, but we really enjoyed peppering those sorts of things in. 

GC: Yeah, lots of mysterious items with oak handles in the game. 

Rob: Right? 

GC: Definitely tying in if you were go through the book carefully. All right, Sophie’s choice time. You have to pick one cat. Hellebore or Jupiter. 

Rob: Oh gosh, what are you doing to us? It’s… I think it’s Jupiter for me. I think…

John: Oh, you see, I would…

Rob: I’m sorry. (I’m sorry Hellebore)

John: I mean, Jupiter now, like it’s hard to I do love Jupiter with his heterachromia and, obviously my he looks quite… a substantially better visually. My art stuff has improved and things, but I do still really have a soft spot for Hellebore. Especially ‘cause he was such, like, a last minute addition to Strange Horticulture. He’s he was not, you know, there from the start. It was like when we were we basically had the game mostly there like in terms of you know…

GC:  All the mechanics, all the content? 

JOhn: All the mechanics and all the not all the content but like certainly all the mechanics and then we were like something’s missing like what is it? And it’s like, yeah, a cat obviously like that. It’s got to have a cat. Like… And then we like, well, can it just be a cat that just didn’t… it doesn’t really have anything to do with the game, but it’s just there. Yeah, why not? Like, just throw it in. And like, it just… it was such a… a winning addition. I  genuinely believe that Strange Horticulture would not have seen the success it has if Hellebore had not been a part of it. 

Rob: Yeah, it’s… it’s kind of shocking how long it took us to realize that this game needed a cat.

GC: Well, I’m glad you did because that purr and that petting is… is always a pleasure to do. 

Rob: Yeah. 

John: Yeah. 

GC: And of course, Jupiter has a bigger role, which I won’t spoil in this game, than Hellebore had in that one. Big question though, the game is coming out. What is the most important thing that you want people to know about the game? Like what is the thing like this is what makes this special to us and this is why we are desperate to share it with you. What are you most excited for people to see?

Rob: That is… that is an incredibly difficult question to answer. I think just the love that we have poured into this over, you know, three years of hard work. And yeah, I think, you know, I just I hope it comes through in all the little details that we’ve put into the game. 

John: Yeah. I mean, we’re just incredibly excited to share it now with people. It gets to a point where you start like you… you’re really proud of your work and then the more you work on it, it starts to, like, go the other way and you kind of want to kick it into the sun at times. And now I I’m just I really wanted to get it to people to show like one the progression like that we’ve made ‘cause I think whilst you know I look back at Strange Horticulture I think we made a pretty good game and obviously you know from people’s perception of it like it clearly resonated with a lot of people but I think we have just taken that and you really improved it on almost in every aspect. Well, at least from my point of view. Like visually, it’s a step up. Like in terms of like the puzzles and the way those (are) done, it’s a step up. Like I just so I just hope people see that as well and enjoy and enjoy it as much as Strange Horticulture and hopefully more. 

GC: Okay. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I’ve learned a lot about the game and as someone who just finished it, I can confirm that it is very much just… Everything you loved about Strange Horticulture has just been moved a leap forward in design this time around. Everything…

Rob: (That’s) very very kind of you to say so. Thank you so much.

GC: Of course!

John: Yeah, that obviously that is what we were hoping for but it’s… it’s lovely to hear honestly. 

GC: No, but I mean the design it’s… it’s so much more playable and so much more in-depth without losing any of the charm. That’s the thing. It really feels like an extension of the world. Yeah. While all of the gameplay mechanics have just taken an amazing leap forward. So, congratulations on how it turned out. 

Rob: Thank you so much. 

GC: Okay. and of course, when is the game releasing and what can people play it on? 

Rob: It’s out on September 17th. And it’s coming to Steam and Switch first, and hopefully other platforms later. 

GC: Okay. Thank you so much for your time and I encourage everybody if they haven’t yet, check out the demo immediately. You don’t have the exploration gameplay, but you do have everything, all the other main parts of the game. 

Rob: Uh, yeah. Well, the exploration is there as well. You just, you know, you have to find that map first, but it’s there. 

GC: Oh, it is. Oh my god. You’re kidding me. 

Rob: No, it’s there. 

GC: I thought it wasn’t there. Oh my god. 

Rob: That but that’s again. Yeah, some people don’t find it. Some people do. 

GC: Apparently, I’m also bad at the demo. Oh, thanks so much. Thanks for watching. Be sure to check out the links for more accessible reviews, interviews, and features at Gamecritics. Also, like the video and subscribe so you get notified whenever new content drops. We’ll see you back here for more. But until then, au revoir!

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